How's Business?
Decatur Metro | October 5, 2008With each passing day, it becomes increasingly clear that our national habit of living beyond our means has gotten us in a real fix. And the bailout package, by all accounts, doesn’t really do much except temporarily stop the bleeding. The problem is much bigger, and this great op-ed from the Boston Globe agrees with me (ok, I agree with it)…
A solution requires the country to begin to spend what it earns, reduce its mountainous debt, and address massive liabilities, restructure Social Security, pension deficits, military, and Medicare.
Now that won’t be so hard, will it? Where did I put that magic wand?
With that friendly, neighborhood doomsday message in mind, I wonder how our merchants are holding up under the increasing strain.
This is gonna be a good thread…..I can feel it.
I own a store in downtown Decatur, and yes, we have seen a drop in business in the last couple of weeks. Over the weekend, the streets were remarkably empty for such lovely days, and people are much more hesitant to buy. During the fall of 2004, our business also took a bit of a hit just before the election, as we all waited to learn our presidential fate…
The last year has been a rough one, and many of us have not yet seen business recover from the MARTA construction which hurt many local businesses dramatically. Several of our neighboring businesses closed earlier this year, leaving some retail and restaurant spaces vacant, which doesn’t enhance the local scene. Those of us hanging in there have also invested in inventory, and with optimism and fingers crossed, are beginning the quarter in which we make any profit for the year. There is an interesting story in today’s NYT about how consumers cutting back on spending could make the economy worse.
( Read it here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/06/business/06econ.html?hp)
I’m not suggesting anyone irresponsibly run up their credit cards or extend themselves beyond their means, but am just asking folks who do have a little money to spread it around a bit with the independent merchants of Decatur. This is not a charitable act, but a community-conscious one. Shopping locally with independent retailers, and eating locally in independently-owned restaurants really does help your community. We are your neighbors. We support your schools and your charities. We contribute to an attractive, active town center. We shop here, too, and maybe support your businesses as well. Before you decide to shop at a discount store to save a little money, think about the real cost of that purchase to your community. And also think about the cost of zipping up your pockets completely.
I also don’t want to give the impression that I believe we should spend our way out of this crisis. Let’s just not all get so frightened that we make a scary situation more harmful to Decatur. Spend your money carefully and consciously, and remember that we are all interwoven.
The Vinson Gallery shuts its doors on 10/31. The show “Last Call” opens Friday. Sad.
This is sad news , although right now, I don’t many people who can afford to money on fine art. I know my formerly disposable income is fully committed to gasoline and food.
In the old days of Decatur, the business on the square sold groceries, hardware, everyday clothing, stationery, etc. People bought these goods even in tough times. Today’s downtown retail is primarily upscale non essential merchandise . It is not so much that we are going elsewhere for lower prices. We just don’t buy these things when money is tight.
Fifi, you are so right. I love many of our downtown shops, but much of their offerings are truly non-essentials and gift oriented. My favorite clothing store in downtown has shirts that are $80 plus…I just can’t afford that with a good consumer conscious…so I have to shop elsewhere for such.
Yesterday I was in downtown Marietta on the square for lunch…people everywhere and eating places filled up by 2pm…saw no empty store fronts around the square that I can recall. Wonder what the difference is between our two business districts? My guess is that most of our businesses are “hip” and trendy (read expensive), and Marietta’s had a much more homey feel…like Cleveland or Dahlonega areas downtown…just my guess.
I sometimes worry that we are going to much in the direction of VA/HI in our retailer mix…
Anon…thanks for the update, though I recall seeing lots of folks walking around Saturday afternoon. (obviously that doesn’t mean they were spending money. I was returning books to the library) But I agree that now more than ever we need to make a conscious effort to spread money locally.
Agreed Fifi and Jim. I also worry about these things. If this economy continues to erode, I’m worried that many of these high-end joints will be some of the first to close up. Not all, but quite a few. Unfortunately, so many of the essential shops were long ago run out of town by the big-box. Doesn’t mean we can’t bring them back…I’m the biggest co-op proponent out there, but it sure as heck won’t be easy.
Excellent points .. I shop at Ace Hardware over Home Depot/Lowe’s whenever I have the opportunity. For some things, you just have to go to the big box because Ace doesn’t carry it. But I go there first, for much of what Fifi and Jim has stated. It’s not that I hate H.D. (it’s actually a “local” business, too, inn’it?) or Lowe’s, but I prefer to give Ace the business because they’re always friendly, always helpful, do a lot for our community, and it’s a comfy sized store to shop in.
A lot of what’s being pointed out here in this thread is quite true. Friends and I’ve talked about this trend in Decatur for quite a while, now… All this boutiquey “mall-ternative” stuff is just not economically feasible. It’s not that the shops aren’t interesting, or run by nice people, or don’t have good, quality merchandise. But as fifi said and Maslow’s pointed out countless times, we have a hierarchy of need and food and power and gas and internet access trumps cool handmade trinkets and $80 blouses and tasty chocolate truffles. Does Decatur really NEED another specialty gift shop? Or another fancy restaurant? Or a coffee shop? What we NEED is a decent grocery store or co-op within walking distance and accessible directly via MARTA that carries a solid array “normal” products at reasonable prices (as opposed to specialty organics 80 different kinds of toothpaste but crappy produce). What we NEED is a sundry store (a la Target) that carries a decent selection of reasonably-priced apparel, furniture, whatever.. A slight premium is fine, but 200% markup designer fluffypuff just can’t possibly be sustainable….
Sadly, real-estate prices play a huge part in this I’m sure and if things don’t come down some on that square, I fear things’ll just continue to sprout’n’fail. Perhaps these failures are good for our economy, but I suspect not.
There seems to be some energy behind the idea that all this would somehow be fixed if more folks lived in the downtown corridor, but I’m just not buyin’ that yet. I might buy a “little better” for a few places, but I just don’t see more residents translating into more gift items purchased. It could help the restaurants some, but again, I am not sure how much.. Sadly, many-an-eatery in Decatur have been failing more because they’re just not very good at making edible food or running a business or both. Sadly, running your business on % of suckers per hour isn’t a very solid business model in any economy.
The “new” Jaggers is feeling the pinch as well. They may be closing an extra weekday per week.
http://carpcircles.yuku.com/topic/1075/t/Jagger-s-needs-help.html (Moe’s not an official spokesman, but a former regular and current employee)
Funny, Jim, I remember a recent AJC article about how Marietta was looking to Decatur to re-develop its Square because there is nothing but lunch places there that close around 2PM and there is no life there at night or on the weekends. I’m not sure that is the model Decatur wants to follow.
After watching what is going on in the City of Atlanta, I know where we could have a terrific development with some reasonable retail ……priced so regular folks can afford it… some middle income condos/apartments or even homes and even some space for school expansion/reconfiguration. Developing this area to its best use would even solve a good bit of the financial challenges that the city faces and would probably reduce taxes for many of our middle income residents. It would allow us to have teachers, cops and city workers who can actually afford to live in City of Decatur without us having to overburden city services.
Of course, I can’t mention where it is b/c it would be too politically incorrect and I would be endlessly flamed.
xokyditive – that sucks! I was wondering how this gas issue was working out with the delivery folks like pizza places. The Jaggers people are such great folks, always nice and fun to chat with when I stop in to pick up my pie. And I totally <3 their pizza. More importantly, my wife loves their pizza and she hates pizza (!!), so it’s a win-win!
Nice attempt hijacking the thread “downtown”.
But if you’re talking about redeveloping affordable housing areas, the city already plans to do that with Allen Wilson Terrace. Half the property will be sold as commercial and market rate condos, while the other half will replace the old public housing with new public housing and 18 market rate condos.
Let me know if I didn’t correctly guess your flammable idea.
Now, where were we? Oh yes…how’s business Decatur?
I recently tried to find a certain item at one of our many wonderful local Decatur shops. The store didn’t have the item, but offered to order it for me. Since I wasn’t in a hurry to get it, I said sure. After about a week, the shop called me to say that they were very sorry, but they couldn’t get the item for me after all, and I should just go ahead and buy it online or from one of the national chains.
Now, I happen to love this particular local store, I think it is a great asset to the community, and a good “citizen” of Decatur. I try to shop there when I have need of the things they sell. But, if I had really needed this item immediately, I would have been very frustrated. I think this is a good illustration of the limitations of local, independent stores.
Helen:
I wasn’t aware of that article, but is good info. I can see where many of the shops were “homey” not trendy,so that may be reflective a lower rents….something that squeezes out many Decatur businesses either in their business plan stage or, sadly, after they open and business doesn’t support their dream. Perhaps there is a successful middle ground between the two. I think it is significant that the busiest store in town is the most basic: CVS.
Jim –
Good point about rents. It is my understanding that Decatur retail/restaurant rents are among the highest on this side of town. If so, the landlords make significant money .
Anonymous mentioned local business owners participating in the community through charitable giving , etc. I know that is true.
As far as landlords – I wonder if they are active participants in the community ? I can’t recall seeing names like Selig or Cartel properties on the donor list for local charities – Preservation Alliance, Decatur Education Foundation, Boys Club, etc. or as sponsors for local events. Anyone else know some details about that ?
This is a huge balancing act that can’t be underestimated. Retail “programming,” as they call it in the trades, is a fine art — finding the right mix of stores to create a whole greater than the sum of the various parts. It’s far easier to achieve in a mall than it is on a Main St. because mall space operates with a single owner and leasing agent. Our Economic Development folks can make efforts to influence the mix but, here in Decatur, we ultimately rely on a collection of independent organizations making independent decisions largely on their own. (The DBA is a notable effort to overcome this weakness.)
Our boutiques/gifts/restaurants niche emerged largely because, in a retail environment where there’s numerous grocery stores, a Target, Lowe’s and Home Depot, etc. in very close proximity, it’s the easier path to compete. There is *no way* any business of downtown scale, operated under local ownership, can compete head to head with these giants on essentials. They must find other merchandising and service strategies — in our case it tends to be the unique or the friendlier or the more knowledgeable — on which to be viable.
In a sort of counter intuitive way, multiple gifts shops or multiple galleries or multiple pubs is far better than just one, even if it seems highly redundant in some respects, because it creates the critical mass necessary for a place such as downtown Decatur to become a desirable “destination.” That is, providing something collectively that’s more desirable to people — and generates more customer traffic — than a single store.
It’s conceivable that a variety of downtown stores, each providing complementary offerings, could make a go of collectively offering a wide variety of essentials and being competitive but I don’t see it happening for a long time. It existed in Decatur historically, for sure, but that was when people typically didn’t cross the city line for less expensive goods. Downtown was *the* place because, in practicality, it was the *only* place.
My posts are always way too long. Sorry about that.
Living in the city of Decatur and having 4 kids automatically precludes my shopping at any of our downtown “boutiques” except LSOS. I just can’t afford it. My mother-in-law was in town recently and spent the whole day (and lots of money) in our boutiques because she can afford it and she loves that sort of stuff. I, on the other had, have to settle for driving 3 minutes up 285 to Target. I think this is the case for many of us. I think of our downtown square as being for visitors and not necessarily for us. We try to spend our money within city limits, but the places I frequent the most are Target, Ikea, Kroger, and Pet Supermarket–all outside our city limits. Oh, and I’d love to shop at Ace and sometimes do because they tend to carry EVERYTHING, but there’s almost a 50% markup on some items and we just can’t afford that either!
There are plenty of affordable locally owned shops in Decatur. Ones that offer discounts through sales, high quality customer service, and contribute back to the community. Without a thriving downtown area, the community will look sparse, and house values will fall, driving folks away, hurting our schools and cutting in to our tax base. While there are certainly some high end boutiques that may require saving a few extra dollars to use, there are several businesses that are locally owned by Decatur residents and simply can’t rely only on tourism dollars, but also need local support. Just a few of my favorites where I can purchase gifts instead of using tons of gas to get to a mall or discount store, or pay to have items shipped online just to pay to have them shipped back, include Decatur CD, Heliotrope, Fleet Feet, Whit’s End, Ace Hardware on Scott Blvd all are favorites who save me a whole lot of time and have great choices with high quality, great customer service, and fair prices. I say shope local and keep the money in our community….just make wiser choices. That’s my 2 cents.
I agree with Kenneth. For clothing for guys you can’t beat Whit’s End. Why waste gas and trek to REI when they have almost everything I need right here in Decatur? Plus, it’s locally owned and I always see them donating back to the community. Losing this great store would be a huge loss to this community. They have great quality at fair prices.
I’m a bit late adding my two cents but I just had a chance to catch up on the blog reading. I’ve really enjoyed this string of comments. Thanks Scott for the clarification between a downtown and a mall — we as a city have little control other than persuasion about which businesses come into Decatur but we work at getting a good mix. Downtowns traditionally have a mix of high end and low end retail because that middle ground is dominated by the big box, volumn buying stores like Target. There are certainly days when the thought of a Target in downtown Decatur has its appeal but in the end, do we really want to become just another strip center? And don’t forget, those types of retail can’t survive on Decatur’s 18,000 residents. They are big destination retailers who tend to draw folks from a very large geographic area which can often mean more traffic (hence their very large parking lots). These issues are all part of the balancing act that Scott refers to and must be considered. As for the downtown residents, they have definitely strengthened our customer base but more importantly, they support our downtown retailers and restaurants on foot.
Fifi:
I have worked on committee’s for various local events over the past seven years or so and have NEVER seen a check or donation or sponsorship fall into a coffer for our local charities, non-profit organizations etc. from these landlords. Conversely, not sure if they were approached either. Our local business, professionals, etc. always have stepped forward in our town ( on the positive side). Anyone know of any of these real estate management companies/etc. having given to charity events/community support? We do want to be fair in this discussion, so y’all speak up…
I own a store in Decatur and I was pleased to see this topic come to fruition. From the very beginning I was extremely price sensitive to Decatur as a community. I’ve passed over many items for my store that I thought were too “Buckhead” for lack of a better term. I hope other store owners look at Decatur the same way. We are a unique community. Not everything will sell here. I think many people would be surprised by how little mark up I actually take. Some of my “boutique” items are cheaper than at Whole Foods. People see the boutique facade and assume everything in the store is expensive. The other store owners I know say the same thing. We don’t sell ferrari’s and fur coats. People can come into our store and buy locally made items for under $5–not something from China.
Yes there are many gift stores in Decatur, yet that is exactly why it is so darn cute–Because the merchandise can’t be found at Wal-Mart. Next time your relatives come into town take them to the mall and see how impressed they are with the exact same merchandise they can find in their hometown mall.
As Decatur merchants, we have been feeling a little bit kicked around on this thread, but we do recognize and appreciate the kind words and support some of you have offered. I think there may be more value in our stores than we are getting credit for. Our aim at Mingei has always been to have something in every price range . A $12 pair of earrings may not be deemed a necessity for some readers of the blog, but certainly that is an accessible little treat. We have items in our store from $1 up, and our neighbors across Church Street, Taste and Hoopla, also have a range of items, from simple to splurge. We invite you all to take a second look at those of us hanging in here. Come all the way into our stores and browse. We have many items that can compete with Target prices. Just because what we have is unique, doesn’t mean it is “high-end”.
Thanks Britt and Kenneth. Yes, we really do need local support. Without it, we can’t be here. We modeled our store for the local customer, that is why we have what we have, where we are, have our store set up the way it is, provide great customer service and continually give back to Decatur. WHIT’S END is for DECATUR, as we live here too. We have high quality mid priced casual clothing and accessories for men/teens and tweens. We are NOT a high end boutique.
Ann and Ellen,
Just so you know, my mother-in-law loved Mingei! She could hardly tear herself away when she was here visiting a few weeks ago. She can’t wait to come back and spend more money in your store! Not only did she love the merchandise, but the one-on-one attention too.
I have to make one more observation here that is really so funny to us merchants. Most people who make a big fuss about supporting local businesses don’t. They talk the talk but never walk the walk. The people who actually do support our stores in Decatur never say a word or ever make a claim that they support local. They just pull out the credit card. The people who say, “this is such a beautiful store” never buy anything either.
I understand that people think they want all super practical stores on the square. That is not a reality though. A mom and pop can never compete with Target. To be totally honest, most big box retailers have looked at Decatur in the past for expansion. They all agree that there is not enough money, parking and foot traffic for them. They ain’t coming. We small entrpreneurs are the only ones stupid enough to risk a Decatur location.
Bottom line is that the rents in Decatur are way too high. I recently looked at moving my store to a very posh resort area and was in shock to find that their rents were way cheaper than in Decatur. The reality of it is that we merchants pay for charm. Our landlords think this place is Lenox Mall and it is not. Ninety percent of the people who walk past my store front aren’t even middle class. They are the working poor and I don’t sell lottery tickets so I just missed out on 90% of the foot traffic in Decatur. I’m one of those merhcants who thinks I should leave Decatur for the Highlands. Most of the people here are very house poor, spending all of their money on their mortagage, home depot, and private school tuition.
I do love many of our stores here, and do most of my holiday shopping “locally” as well. Ann and Ellen gave me pause to think, and I SHOULD go all the way in and not just think it is expensive! I wanna be like Aunt Bea on Andy Griffith and be able to walk downtown and walk back home with groceries, some material for a new dress, pine for the bed jacket in the window, and wave at the guys in the barber shop…sigh…Decatur is probably as close to that as anyone can reasonably expect to get in 2008!
THERE are the merchants! ‘Sup guys and gals?!
Though I can’t speak for everyone, I am thoroughly satisfied with the great array and services provided by our local merchants. Its the primary reason I moved here.
I think that any frustration that you’re hearing is coming from folks that want something within walking distance that they don’t currently have (a good, full-service grocery), not from any sort of dissatisfaction with your stores.
But you also bring up an excellent point about “misinformation” that everything at Decatur stores is expensive. Perhaps the DBA and/or city could put together some sort of clever ad that does one of two things.
1. “The Publix Approach” – find what you would term “essentials” at different local merchants and put them in one collective ad at competitive prices.
2. The Whole Foods Approach” – compare the price of items on your shelves to those at the big box competition and show how they are around the same price or cheaper.
Its free advice, so take it for what its worth. But I think either might help change this perception.
Merchants: Thank you for providing me with great gifts, cards, candy, accessories, CDs, and entertainment. I like getting witty birthday cards (Heliotrope has some hysterical ones) and gifts for my friends (Hoopla for the kids and kids at heart, Taste, Heliotrope, Mingei, Rue de Leon (sigh…), Decatur CD for the rest). Those are just my staples. I wander into all the other shops as well looking for the perfect little something for me or a friend. I have yet to make it into Fleet Feet and Whit’s End, but that is on the agenda for this weekend.
Oh, and I went to Greene’s over the weekend. While I did not purchase anything, I had some amazing fudge and plan to go back and buy something. They can do parties there too and have a great kids area. If you ever order Harry and David food things – use Greene’s next time.
Thanks Merchants for providing us with great service and fun products.
I just had to post a comment complimenting Mingei World Arts and reiterating Ann & Ellen’s post that there are many, many unique items in all price ranges. I recently bought some very reasonably priced jewelry there for my wife and daughter and Ann could not have been more pleasant or helpful.
I’m not sure but I believe the owner of Taste may have posted above also. If so, I’ve got to compliment him as well because he has always been so friendly whenever we’ve been in there and he stocks loads of fun, interesting and, again, reasonably priced inventory.
Both places are great for out of town guests.
I walk the walk….usually flat on my face after I leave the Brick Store
On a more serious note compared to my last post….
I think that where my wife and I sit on the economic ladder is fairly important to the overall feel of where the economy is headed and how it will affect local businesses (I will not state income bracket as I do not want to start a class war here).
In the grand scheme of things, my wife and I were “spenders” in the city of Decatur shops and restaurants. We sock away money of course, live in a smaller house that we financed correctly almost 5 years ago (30 year fixed at 5.5 %. My father, who of course lived through the Carter years of 13% interests rates, said to me, “You are an idiot if you don’t lock in that rate.” Not kidding, that is a direct quote!)
However, my wife and I have locked it down, spending wise. Why? I don’t know. Other than the fact that we both have a feeling that the party is over. That the era of financing everything to live a certain lifestyle is gone. I have a feeling, that after the election, and if the guy I think who is going to win, wins, the economy is going to come to a screeching halt. And I mean screeching. It just has to. Socialization of the credit and finance markets is swirling in our midst. This recent .5% interest rate cut a desperate attempt at containing the damage. Already gone is me popping in for a beer and a sandwich at one of my favorite places. Oh well….we shall see. Sorry for being such a downer, but it couldn’t last forever.
I think most Americans are in fact interested in a regulated credit and finance markets. You call it socialized because that is a great trigger word, we democrats call it regulated. The previous unregulated version of our financial markets didn’t work that well for the middle class either. We can all agree on that.
I do agree with Left Wing that the party is over, yet I’m sure our views on how the party ended are different. Our collective spider sense had to be tingling when every Tom, Dick, and Harry in America was making money hand over fist in real estate, “flipping” houses. Laws of supply and demand will show you that can’t go on forever. Money was way too cheap for way too long. Interest rates were kept way below market value for years. Banks got greedy with such artificially lowered prime rates. Everyone got a loan because the wealthiest segments of our society set it up that way.
It’s funny how the rich are all blaming this housing mess on the poorest segment of society who have no policy making clout at all. The poor follow the rules of finance they don’t write the rules of finance and they certainly don’t control interest rates.
Every Econ 101 student learns that inflation rises too quickly when interest rates are too low. Prices are out of control and that is a big part of the problem. Many people can’t afford their mortgages when their energy costs, health care costs, and food costs are up 30-50%. The last administration placed a band-aid on a tumor and hoped for the best. Hopefully a new President will regulate the financial markets so that the middle class won’t have to pay for any more golden parachutes.
Finally, if you want to talk about our economy coming to a screeching halt just do what John McCain says, “Freeze all goverment spending except the military and entitlements.” That is dangerous talk–ask any economist. Targeted government spending has cured many recesssions and depressions large and small. Once again, McCain has proven that he knows so little about Economics and it’s showing loud and clear at the polls.
Key phrase being “targeted” government spending. As long as the Government keeps growing at a mammoth rate, your “targeted” government spending is a pipe dream and a fantasy.
And another thing….who are “the rich” that you keep referencing here? Here is an assignment for you JohnD…I want to know:
A) Who are “the rich”?
B) Who are the middle class?
C) What percentage of the working population pay NO Federal Income taxes?
Glad to see some of our retailers weighing in on this discussion. We do have a wonderful array of businesses in Decatur and they are correct — they have offerings for every price range. I can usually find what I’m looking for in downtown Decatur if I just take the time. The wonderful thing is that if one of our retailers doesn’t have what I’m looking for they will recommend another Decatur shop that can meet my need. A few years back when my daughter needed an evening bag for prom the first thought was to head to the mall. Instead, we shopped Decatur and found the perfect one at Boutique Karma. The other thing I love is the business owners who always act like they really appreciate my business — makes it easier to spend money when someone actually appreciates your business.
After reading some of these posts, I went over to Whit’s End on this rainy day, and what a find! Why would any man, or anyone shopping for a man go anywhere else? They have tons of items on sale, and what isn’t on sale is extremely affordable, and the quality is excellent. I asked how business was, and I was told that they are paying their bills, but and that’s about it. I was given personalized attention without being harrassed and Jeff was honest and sincere. Whit’s End has pegged the Decatur guy to a tee, and the store is so comfortable and relaxed. If you are going to spend money, keep it in Decatur! I agree, without a thriving commercial town, our homes will devalue. Jeff told me they were very careful about pricing and inventory when ordering for the Fall, so they could continue to provide great clothing at fair prices. There isn’t anything in that store that is over $100. If you read their blog, and sign up for their email list, they are constantly sending out coupons, discounts etc. Plus, they carry tons of Decatur oriented items and are our neighbors! We have to keep this store in business……..I will never shop anywhere else when seeking a gift for a guy! My husband will be extremely happy with this shop, and I know will go in and frequent the store often.
I just re read my post and there is very little at Whit’s End that is even near the $100 mark. Most of their clothing was in the $30-$60 range, with a ‘few’ more expensive items, and many many items offered at huge savings.
I have a feeling, that after the election, and if the guy I think who is going to win, wins, the economy is going to come to a screeching halt. And I mean screeching. It just has to. Socialization of the credit and finance markets is swirling in our midst.
Why don’t you just say what you mean, Left Wing? If I interpret you correctly, you think that if we elect Obama the economy “is going to come to a screeching halt?”
Why, that’s funny, isn’t it? The economy has already come to a “screeching halt,” but it was under a Republican President for which that occurred and it can be argued that it occurred because of the low tax, free spending, easy credit society that he created.
Socialization of the credit and finance markets? It has already happened, Left Wing. But who proposed it? A Republican President and Republican Treasury Secretary named George W. Bush and Henry Paulson and supported by both Presidential candidates, including a Republican named John McCain.
I find it amazing that the current sad state of affairs has occurred on one party’s watch, yet there are still folks like you out there who will not give the other party a chance to get us out of the mess. The last time we were in a recession and elected a Democratic President our economic progress turned out quite nicely (i.e. Bill Clinton).
Not to mention that in last night’s debate, John McCain proposed the federal goverment re-adjusting the basis of every home mortgage in America based on its current value rather than what is owed.
What could be more socialist than that?
Barack Obama
Jim,
Sorry, but open your eyes and see if that can filter through your prejudices.
Here is what McCain said at the debate Tuesday night:
“As president of the United States, Alan, I would order the secretary of the treasury to immediately buy up the bad home loan mortgages in America and renegotiate at the new value of those homes — at the diminished value of those homes and let people be able to make those — be able to make those payments and stay in their homes.”
Obama has said he opposes such a move.
I’m sorry Jim, but when it comes to socialism, the Democrats have nothing on Republicans.
Excellent point DecaturGuy….however, it is my belief that the current economic mess has two main points:
1) The Democrats agenda of getting everyone in a home that can’t afford it (ie…minorities), propping up Fannie and Freddie to take more risk and blocking Republican attempts to regulate.
2) Republicans keeping interest rates artificially low. JohnD makes an excellent argument there.
There is blame to cast around everywhere. I just believe that the nationalization of the financial markets is our first step towards the dying economies of Europe….except Ireland (is that considered Europe?), which has low corporate tax rates and whose economy is exploding.
Actually…Ireland’s now in a recession…
Also, here’s a quote from an IBD article about how the housing bust is affecting some european countries more than others…
“The economic downturn is more on the periphery, hitting Greece, Portugal, Spain and Ireland at this point,” he added.
Spain is the 15-nation euro zone’s No. 3 economy; Ireland ranks ninth.
France is bigger than Spain and Ireland, but its housing problems don’t seem as severe.
Construction activity in Spain and Ireland accounted for almost one-fifth of their recent GDP growth, according to Just. Now they must deal with a glut of unsold new homes and fewer housing starts.
Construction jobs in Spain have plunged, boosting overall joblessness to 9.6%. Euro zone unemployment crept up to 7.3% in June from 7.2% in May.
In France, falling house prices may curb consumer spending but damage to the economy will be limited, says Daniel Gros, director of the Center for European Policy Studies.
“The housing bust’s impact will be completely different between countries,” Gros said. “It should be short-lived in countries that experienced little or no construction booms, such as France and Italy, but will last longer in Spain, Ireland and probably Greece.”
Thanks for the advice Decaturguy. I will stick to my opinion and you can stick to wealth redistribution not being a socialistic move, which is what, in essence, Obama’s corporate tax proposals entail…”You take all the risk, you use your own money, you put in the sweat equity, and then WE WILL come and take it away from you via our taxation structure.” Nor do I subscribe to everything as has been assigned to the McCain platform. Not by a long shot. But when I slice it all apart and put it back together again…McCain comes much closer to my own beliefs of less government and more personal responsibility than the current Democratic candidate. Heck, even Hillary looked better to me than Senator Obama. But popular culture swayed that outcome so we have what we have. I am fiscal conservative and social liberal, so probably better to pigeonhole me as a Libertarian anyway. Your promulgation of the “us vs. them” approach to problem solving is disheartening to say the least and is a sad mirror of the current legislative morass. I don’t see my neighbors as Dems or Pubs, despite how they vote or yard signs, etc. but as people who hold their own opinion to which they have a right. I don’t think less of you because we disagree on this. Can the same be said in reverse?
I just find it bizarre that a self proclaimed “social liberal” would support McCain/Palin, Saxby Chambliss, and the rest of the GOP ticket. In fact they represent the complete opposite of what you claim to be – they are big government Bush Socialist Republicans and social conservatives.
Redistribution of the wealth? Read what John McCain said again. It was a direct quote from the debate and what he has been making speeches about all week. Oh, he wants to tax your employer provided health benefits as well.
And as far as Obama’s tax policies, he just wants to go back to the tax structure that we had under Bill Clinton’s administration where we saw some of the largest economic growth in history not just for rich people but for the poor and middle class as well.
It’s really not that radical. What is radical is the tax structure that George Bush started and John McCain wants to expand that has led us to one of the biggest economic crises we’ve had since the Great Depression.
If I hear one more person talk about how it was so great under Clinton I am going to…..going to…..do something.
Can everyone here please agree that everything was great due to the dotcom bubble and Welfare Reform?
Great!
Carry on….
Democrats will stop saying how great the Clinton era was when Republicans stop saying how great everything was under Ronald Reagan.
Well, as I said, they don’t hit all the marks with me. They are much more socially conservative than I, but my priorities (screwed up as may be viewed by others!) line up with less government control, more states rights, more of my earned money in my pocket, national security, and then the social stuff is further down the list. Politics in general is distasteful to me, and generally I don’t put a lot of weight into what either “party” espouses in terms of what they will do if elected. And as for my personal social liberalism, I take the responsibility on myself through my charity work and community volunteering, not my government and their checkbook. Seeing what my city taxes pay for in terms of school alone should be considered charity (meant to be a little humorous).
As for the comparison to Clinton and economic growth, well that is not apples to apples, as we live in a much different world both politically and economically that ten years ago or so. 9/11 had a lot to do with that, and some decisions that could have been made then that weren’t in the 90’s provided the seed for what we are now sowing.
I think you give too much “credit” to McCain as to wanting to contribute to expanding the tax structure per mortgage. My take is that it would be a way to keep folks in their homes and save their mortgage be revaluing them at current market value for purposes of mortgage payments. So many would see that as a gesture of concern over folks losing their homes.
Will I be beside myself when and if Obama wins? No, not at all. Disappointed, yes. But it won’t be the end of the world. George Bush has done more singlehandedly to bring the whole Republican party to its’ current pariah state than any reasonable thinking person could have possibly imagined. Thereby you see such a swing to Obama, who in almost any other presidential election would not even have been a serious contender. Hillary and Bill are still dumbstruck. I am just uncomfortable wth the lemming like, en masse bandwagon jumping that his candidacy has elicited…even without any policy specifics IMO!
Well, that kinda went off topic, huh? A.D.D. Sorry to all if we inadvertently hijacked this thread.
As a merchant here in Decatur, it amazes me how many of the same folks walk by day after day and don’t ever come in to check out the store. These aren’t workers, they are neighbors and residents. And, while I get that I may not offer what they want, or they are thrift store or Wal Mart shoppers, it still would be nice to have them check out my wares. I don’t bite, and also do not harrass folks when they are looking. So for those that ‘think’ Decatur shops are too expensive, just drop by and check out each one if you think they might offer something you could be interested in, or maybe they have items on sale? We need local support. How quickly everyone forgets how not long ago how desolate Decatur looked with all the closed businesses, and how it negatively effected the community as a whole. Please keep your money in your community. Thanks. BTW I agree with some of the other posters about the ‘nice shop, I’ll be back’, and ‘I always support Decatur stores’ comments from lookers….these are usually not folks who ever buy anything.
A fairly large segment of the Decatur population has lived here for many
years . We readily came here when there were no stores or restaurants . We didn’t move here for shopping or eating out. Believe it or not, we didn’t see the Decatur of 15 or 20 years ago as a desolate place begging for improvement.
Local Merchant, I don;t know if you were here 15 years ago. My memory may be foggy but I don’t recall feeling i lived in a negatively impacted community .
As I saw it the redevelopment of Decatur was welcomed more because it would keep tax rates in check than because we were all dying to eat out every night and have a dozen specialty boutiques just around the corner. ( of course at that point we didn’t know there would be a major glitch with the sales tax revenue )
Compared to people in other areas of town, the average Decaturite isn’t
really into shopping for fun or lots of conspicuous consumption.
If retailers selling nonessential goods ( that is most of the shops) expected much of their customer base to be residents from nearby neighborhoods perhaps they didn’t do enough research about the character of Decaturites .
Fifi, I am a 24-year resident and I am intrigued by your statement: “As I saw it the redevelopment of Decatur was welcomed more because it would keep tax rates in check”
I couldn’t agree with your observation more. Development, on the surface, seems to have come at a cost to the city: high millage and new bond indebtedness. In addition to that, the city leaders want to annex for the sake of annexation, apparently.
If development does nothing to lower the tax base, then won’t annexation compound the problem?
I support development and higher density in Decatur. But our built-in overhead costs seem to be going up more than they should be relative to the new tax revenue.
I happen to think that the greatest long term vision of Decatur is the fact that most people will consider intown living as more manageable.
I think we should give more support to the long term planning of Decatur officials.
Hey…is my grammar going off track? Is it really 11:42 with the kid at the grandparents?
First it was “growth for growth’s sake”. Now its “annexation for annexation’s sake”. I’m sensing a trend in your arguments taxus.
The city commission and mayor have said time and again why they are looking into annexation. It’s well-documented on this site. You may disagree with their reasoning but don’t misrepresent them by saying they’re doing this blindly.
Left Wing – Amen.
Mr Metro
You said it, not me. They really are doing this blindly. Have you read Peggy Merriss’ report on Annexation? It reads every bit like a college paper hacked out the night before it was due. I wrote a few myself, so I know.
I’m sensing a trend in Decatur Metro putting words in a contributor’s mouth.
Fifi, yes I was here, and left Decatur often because there were few places to eat and shop. I don’t anymore. I spend my money where I live and work. Yes there are certainly several shops that are not geared toward the local economy, but as of lately, several shops and restaurants have opened up that DO cater toward the local economy, and several are owned by folks who live right here in Decatur. Decatur is one of the few communities where real estate values have continued to increase recently. Most of the folks I encounter here now have moved to Decatur because of the commerce within walking distance, or very close driving distance of their homes, which makes life easier and convenient.
Mr. Taxus, I’d appreciate some details as how Ms. Merriss’ report reads like a “college paper hacked out the night before it was due.” Then maybe we could begin to have a fruitful discussion about the pros and cons of annexation.
Insulting the city’s work is easy…coming up with concrete alternative solutions to lowering our property taxes is much more difficult.
Ms. Metro (equal time)
I suggest you read the report yourself and form your own opinion.
Annexation Report produced by Peggy Merriss date Jan 22 2008 can be found at the city website:
http://decaturga.com/client_resources/cgs/annexation%20jan%202008%20memo%20final.doc
Yes, insulting shoddy work IS easy when my expectations of the city manager’s responsibility is as high as it is.
I have not finished my research just yet, so I’ll get back to you when I am satisfied that either a) annexation is the right thing to do or b) annexation is not the right thing to do.
I will share with you a few of my concerns and observations after having read the report:
The report assumes annexation is a positive without any kind of detail other than a jump of residential tax base from 76% to 85% between 1994 and 2007. That’s 9 points in 13 years. I have to assume, given the context, that is viewed as a negative.
Given the boom in new units and property values during those years, this may be a reasonable expectation.
During those same years a lot of first floor retail and offices on Ponce have been constructed. A question comes to mind: “why does commercial property base seem to be lagging behind the jump in the residential base?”
In the sixth paragraph, “…In order to meet the objectives above…” one of the objectives appears to be annexation itself.
There are no benchmarks given. Just assumptions.
I’d like to see what the real cost is to the city for commercial and retail services compared to the cost of residential services over the same years 94-07.
I’d like to see what the details are for “the City’s future economic sustainability.” None are given in the report.
Even more perplexing to me is this: If the City’s fiscal situation is now dire in times when property values have increased, the number of taxable properties has increased, and with the approval of an additional $25 million bond, then I have to wonder if there are underlying structural problems that are adding to, if not creating, instability.
My concern is that the city manager is engaging in a theoretical exercise that has no basis of fact.
Furthermore, I am concerned that the cost of additional development through annexation (it doesn’t seem to have helped in the years 1994-2007) may actually worsen the fiscal condition of the city.
The city manager concludes that the city limits have not changed since the 1920s. I ask, why does that matter? Why is that important?
Perhaps there are answers hidden in the details that aren’t provided in the annexation report.
I will be looking at other sources and documents produced by the city for answers to these and other questions.
Then I’ll get back with you.
taxus, when the annexation actually comes up for discussion at the City Commission, feel free to appear and express your concerns. Better yet, contact your City Commissioners in person. Better, better yet, run for City Commission next year and make that your platform. You did vote in the last City election, I presume?
Hi, Taxus. Thanks for the follow through. One of the things that seems to attract a lot of devoted DM readers is the substantive nature of the discussions. Many here don’t just have abstract opinions; they back ‘em up. Welcome to the fray!
That said, I have couple thoughts on your post that I see as key points:
The issue, to me, is the idea that 85% of our tax revenue is coming from residential. It’s another example of putting too many eggs in one basket rather than reaching greater diversification of revenue sources. It leaves you more vulnerable to changing conditions.
There is and always will be sensitivity among Decatur homeowners re: property taxes. Everyone would love for them to come down but there’s really only two theoretical ways to get there: 1) reduction in the level of service and amenity, which I have a hard time believing would be tolerated by our high-achievement/high-expectations populace; or 2) tax income from other sources (i.e. commercial).
The problem with the latter is that we really don’t have any significant acreage to get there (without rezoning neighborhoods for commercial, another option that will never happen). Even with all the downtown redevelopment over the past 15 years, we’ve only added about 60,000 square feet of retail total. That’s about half of one big box supermarket, and certainly not enough to make a significant dent in the tax rate.
The nine point rise from 94-07 seems to be a direct result of downtown residential development, and the concurrent housing bubble’s rapid escalation of value assessments.
So, in my opinion, this is city government attempting to (at worst) maintain and (at best) reduce our residential tax rate. Given your opposition (or skepticism) to the idea of annexation, what other manner would you suggest to accomplish it?
Taxus, last I checked I was a dude, so you can stick with “Mr”. Also, I’ve been posting on annexation for a good year now, so needless to say I’ve read the report, not to mention attended the meetings.
I think if you asked most cities and municipalities, they’d tell you 15% commercial is quite low. The desire for a larger % of commercial stems from the fact that they use fewer of the city’s resources (mainly because they don’t send kids into the school system)…while residential typically uses more services than it pays for. I don’t have Decatur’s actual residential/commercial breakdown, but I’m sure its public record and if motivated someone could pull something together (if you do, I’d love to see it).
And that’s the other thing that time and again has been misreported on this annexation issue (mostly by the AJC)…this report was only something for the commission to get the ball rolling to consider the issue, not a report that was going to lead to a vote a couple weeks later. When I first reported this back in the fall of ’07 and then posted the map in Jan ’08, I think it got more attention than the commission anticipated. At the meeting where the report was given, the commissioners where still ironing out basic issues…#1 being if you’re going to incorporate all these kids, where are you going to put them? (the school system has since come up with options – the space issue is mainly at the elementary and Glennwood level)
So for me the jury’s still out because I don’t even know what we’re annexing yet. The idea was raised of ignoring residential and just annexing commercial down College and up near N. Decatur…I don’t think that’s been ruled out yet.
But as was stated by the mayor at that same meeting, the reason for annexation is to help lower resident’s taxes by increasing the % of commercial. I expect if and when they figure out what exactly they want to annex, they’ll give us info on how it will affect the city’s makeup in detail.
Mr. Steve,
If you don’t want to hear what I have to say just hit the ignore button.
I will have my say with my elected officials when I am ready.
Thanks.
Mr Scott
Thanks for your responses.
Just a quickie reply here to your question about how to reduce/hold the line on taxes which, as a 24 year resident of Decatur, let me be clear, I AM POSITIVELY IN FAVOR OF.
Of the theoretical ways you mention, a combination of the two is a third possibility. Reduction of City overhead is a fourth possibility.
A question that I’ll be looking into is, “Is the valuation for commercial property under-appraised?”
When I first moved here, Decatur had its own tax appraisal/valuation dept and since then, has outsourced it to Dekalb County.
Another significant tidbit about the early days: when the appraisal for tax purposes moved to Dekalb County, Decatur’s tax valuation went from 40% to 50% of appraisal.
If our officials are sincere about lowering taxes, why not drop it back to 40% like Dekalb and most other jurisdictions? Just a thought.
taxus, I am merely suggesting the proper forum for your concerns. The elected officials work for you (and me) and that is where citizens may influence decisions which affect them. Blogs like this are nice for discussion, but the real decisions are made by our elected bodies and that is where comments should ultimately be directed. The appointed officials also work at the pleasure of the City Commission and if you are dissatisfied with their work, as you seem to be with Ms Merriss, then that is also your forum.
“If our officials are sincere about lowering taxes, why not drop it back to 40% like Dekalb and most other jurisdictions?”
Again, take it up with the City Commission.
“When I first moved here, Decatur had its own tax appraisal/valuation dept and since then, has outsourced it to Dekalb County.”
This was done as a cost cutting and efficiency measure and eliminated an entire department with its associated expense, which I would think you would approve of.
BTW, I am a 22 year resident of Decatur and have appeared before numerous City boards and commissions and have voted in every election since I have been here.
Mr Metro
We agree in principal on the same thing: lowering high taxes in Decatur is desirable.
I also read in your statement that you are not sure what the city really intends regarding annexation. Again, we agree.
Mr Metro says:
” I expect if and when they figure out what exactly they want to annex, they’ll give us info on how it will affect the city’s makeup in detail.”
I look forward to anything that the city publishes on the matter. So far, what I have seen is disappointing, in my opinion.
I would like to add: Decatur Metro is potentially a GREAT RESOURCE for this city – as long as it promotes diverse viewpoints.
Mr Steve
I have voted and have attended city commission, zoning commission, planning commision meetings just like you. We seem to have something in common.
You said regarding elimination of “an entire department” –
“This was done as a cost cutting and efficiency measure and eliminated an entire department with its associated expense, which I would think you would approve of.”
No, I don’t think I do approve of it. If you are saying that increasing the residents of this city’s residents taxes by 20% is less than what it cost for one or two staff postions, then I’ll buy you a pitcher of beer at your favorite beer parlor in Decatur.
taxus, it costs what it costs to run a city. Lowering taxes very simply causes a reduction in services. I happen to believe that Decatur is run very efficiently. If you are willing to give up some services to reduce taxes, there is another item to discuss with your elected officials. Unfortunately, Decatur’s “overhead” is higher in proportion to larger municipalities because, for instance, it doesn’t take a proportionately larger staff to operate a larger city.
One argument for annexation, which I imagine you don’t agree with, is that the cost to provide services to the potentially annexed area is less than the increased taxes derived from that area. Ms Merriss’ document cites an approximately $ 700,000 increase in cost vs a $ 3,000,000 increase in tax revenue. The difference could be used to decrease taxes for the rest of us.
Mr Steve
“”I happen to believe that Decatur is run very efficiently.””
Our beliefs and reality are sometimes very different and it is not my desire to conflict with yours.
So, until I have more concrete data to offer, let’s just keave it at that.
Sorry, typo
Leave it at that.